Animator vs The Machine
With the explosion of AI, looking at what people in the animation industry think might occur in the future. Then talking to experts in artificial intelligence to help ground what this new technology is. Skynet or a tool? The downfall of animation or is this a possible new renaissance?
Animator vs The Machine
My Animation Academia: Talking with Elise vanHeerden & Yomna Majbour, students on the verge of graduation
As many either are looking AI with hesitation, contemplation or embracing it, the group of people who will be impacted the most are not the ones in the industry currently but those about to enter it- students. So this episode we talk to Elise vanHeerden & Yomna Majbour, two third year students from Algonquin College animation program on the verge of graduating. We talk about what inspired them to be in animation, what are their feelings on AI and what concerns they might have with maybe one day being integrated into the industry. Check out this fresh and hopeful chat with two budding artists as they get ready to enter the industry.
animator versus the machine begin.
Speaker 2:All right, we're back for another episode. So on this podcast we typically talk to industry professionals, professors, artists, techno enthusiasts and, well, anyone else who will talk to me. But there's one group of people we haven't talked to yet, the group I would argue are most impacted by artificial intelligence in the animation industry because they're about to enter the field in the coming months. So I decided to reach out to the Algonquin Animation Program and they replied and said they would love to. So from the Algonquin Animation Program, we have two students who are about to graduate. We have Elise Van Heeren and Yamna Majibor. Did I get that right?
Speaker 3:No, I don't think I did Close enough, okay, yamna Majibor Thank you, yamna.
Speaker 2:Majibor Okay, perfect. Hello, ladies, how's it going? It's pretty good, yeah, it's a nice day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not too bad.
Speaker 2:Perfect, All right. So how about we start with Elise? Elise, tell the Phantom listeners a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my name is Elise Van Heerden. I am an Algonquin student. I'm in the design section of the program so I've been really focusing on like layouts and really gotten into background painting. And yeah, I've started the job hunt a little early in the hopes that maybe that will help me. But I'm excited to graduate and get out there Perfect.
Speaker 2:And you, Yama, who are you to these phantom listeners?
Speaker 3:Hello, I'm also in the Algonquin College program third year and I'm in the 3D course kind of section and I mostly do 3D modeling and I do some animation on the side. But that's kind of like my specialty and I'm still relaxed. I'm taking it slow on the side but that's kind of like my specialty and I'm still relaxed. I'm taking it slow on the job hunting. I know we're in a tough spot so I'm like taking my time.
Speaker 2:we need to like work on my performance, but it's getting there perfect that's real, so yeah uh, what's what inspired you guys to be to pursue a career in animation?
Speaker 3:let's start with Yanma uh, yeah, I mean, I I always kind of grew up drawing and I have a like a deep love for everything cartoon and anime and whatnot. So, uh, it was kind of like the obvious thing for me. When I saw that it was an option, I was like, oh, absolutely like, this is what I want to do. I want to make cartoons that other people will enjoy, the way I did growing up. So perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, it's a yeah a tale that's been told many times. What about you, elise?
Speaker 1:uh, fairly similar like growing up being the art kid, but I wasn't really interested in animation like right away. Um, when I was really little, I wanted to be an author and then, I think, in like middle school, I kind of realized that animation was like the marriage of art and story. And I remember watching how to Train your Dragon 2 for like the 500th time and hitting the end credits and feeling like almost like sick with like I need to do this. I don't know how, I don't know why, but right now I know I have to get good enough. And then just kind of became obsessed with it and haven't thought about doing anything else.
Speaker 2:Pure inspiration, Perfect. So then it's no secret that you're on this podcast. We're going to talk about AI, so let's just get into it. When did you guys become aware of AI's increasing presence and how did you feel about its role in animation?
Speaker 1:Let's go with Elise. I feel like it's been fairly recent that I've become aware with it, kind of like when it really exploded in the last year or so, and I think I've been a little protected by the Algonquin bubble of like my head is to the grindstone and I can only think about the work I'm doing now and have no capacity to think about whatever's the immediate present, and that's, that's nothing else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got the blinders on, um, and it's really only been this year where I'm like, oh, this actually does impact me and I need to think about other things that I've had to consider it. But it kind of feels like it's very out of my control, and that's as much thought as I've given it where I'm like well.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It is what it is, sure. What about you, yama, being in 3D and all?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I started to get like into the AI conversation back when it like became a thing on TikTok with the whole like filters and stuff, and I got to know that, oh, this is actually what they're doing with other people's art and stuff, and but I kind of really started to know more also this year now with like the new, more developed stuff that's coming out and I don't know. At first I was like was like oh my god, like this is this?
Speaker 1:is it? We're all doomed?
Speaker 3:I'm never finding a job because we were like already halfway through our education and I was like, well, I've wasted all this time and money for this. And now I'm in a more like a yeah, I'm, I'm calming down, so I'm in a more like stable place where I'm like, yeah, it's, it's scary, but it's still, it's got a ways to go and, like I know, I'm not in that much of a tight squeeze yet.
Speaker 2:So Okay, so have you guys discussed the your concerns about AI with your peers in class or with faculty, and what are the collective thoughts around it? Oh yeah, like what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, or with faculty, and what are the collective thoughts around it? Oh yeah, like what? Yeah, I think. Uh, that was like one I don't know about, at least, but one of the first thing that we started talking about, like beginning of the year, was like oh guys, ai, like, this is if we see you guys using the stuff you're out, so that was like the first thing, yeah, and it was like it's a big no-no in at least the 3d aspect of it.
Speaker 3:So and I talk with my classmates all the time about it and we've tried to ask like industry professionals, but like we're trying to see as much as we can how much, how deeply intertwined it is with the industry right now. So but yeah, for for at least my program, it's like yeah it, it's a big no-no. Yeah, Okay, what about you, Elise?
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, I would say fairly similar, except for it was a little bit more like we are not going to talk about this, we don't want to think about it, we're all just going to focus on our work. And I'm the class rep for my group.
Speaker 1:So I got to go to an algonquin um meeting where it was like all the class reps for all the programs, not just within like the arts um, and it was about ai coming into the college. It was really interesting to have like the the business students and the communication students like stand up to the microphone and be like we think it's great and I love it writing my little paragraphs and then having like the art students being like we hate it just burn it down to the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, interesting. So I'm curious, yama. Uh, from a 3d point of view, what were they like? What were they like? You cannot use this at all. Like I'm curious, like what integration they thought you would use it for? You know what I?
Speaker 3:mean, um I there's a lot of like softwares and plugins that you can add into maya and stuff, so I'm assuming that that was.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of like auto keyers and auto stuff and betweeners and stuff like that, and they were like you don't want to really do that. We want you to see, like we want to see, the effort and how you're thinking about doing this kind of stuff. Okay, so that was mostly it Cause we I feel like there's not a lot of stuff that's affecting us as much in the 3d right now. So it was mostly like don't let like any computer generated stuff impact your work.
Speaker 2:Basically, Okay, so it was. It was just more about not cheapening the craft and letting the computer do everything, versus like no, we want you to understand, like timing and spacing and all these type of things yeah, it's kind of like that.
Speaker 3:It's like a mix of both of those things where it's like you need to understand what you're doing so you you have a good result and that, like the computer generated stuff is never going to be able to do that for you so Right, so you're not at your job and you're like, hey, you guys don't have the rigging eye tool here and I don't know what to do. Yeah, exactly the auto modeling tool. Just like click it and it's a car, yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like the. At least during my time in studio it was always like the infamous auto animate button that was. It was always like the mythical button where it's like just do it now and just like you'd hit it and like it's perfect, great, move on, but it's like doesn't exist right you just let toon moon do his thing.
Speaker 3:It's like parts are like launching across the room You're like oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So I was curious Do you guys have any plans to adapt to the changing world with AI that might bring to the animation process, and what concerns do you have with it being integrated into like an animation pipeline or you know, the animation industry itself? Yeah, oh, that's not good.
Speaker 3:I hear crickets yeah, I don't know, maybe, uh, for us I don't think it like there's a lot of stuff that goes into 3d like, especially with animation and modeling, where it's like so detail oriented and the revisions that you get are like so like, oh, move this two pixels to the left, right. So I don't think there's a lot of like. I'm not as scared about my field right of animation when it comes to ai and I'm not really sure how like I know the there's like the auto stuff and auto peers and auto in betweeners and stuff, and sure they could probably like they might be able to help us every now and then, but it's still not something that's going to take over our jobs. I feel like the more illustrative side of art is still the one that's most in this like space of like oh, do we fear it or do we not fear it? Right?
Speaker 2:like, yeah, there's the craft of use, like even in tomb or even maya, like you could auto tween, right, but it's gonna look like shit yeah but it's.
Speaker 2:It's the craft of knowing like no, no, I want like a three, three quarter space and then moving at the timeline and being like no, this is where I want my, my breakdown here. This is where I want, like his arms to break the model, I want to go up, or it's like you. You know you're. That's the craft of understanding the, the kinetics and the movement, as well as the artistry, what you want to do, and the exaggeration of animation versus just like look at my bubbly guy move and you're like holy shit so yeah, alright, I guess for Elise who's in backgrounds or aspiring to be in backgrounds aspiring
Speaker 2:are you concerned with? Because there was a Netflix show I think it was made in china a couple months ago where they used uh ai generated backgrounds and then artists would draw over top of it and then ai would render it over top of generated over top again. Right, so it's it's using, it's not. Its data set is not like where it's getting. It's not. It's data set is not like where it's getting. Information is not from the internet, but it's getting from the artists who are being hired by a studio. Does that concern you Like? Is that a tool in your mind or is that just? Is that just cheapening what the craft is in your opinion?
Speaker 1:in your opinion? In my opinion, I think it's cheapening the craft. I think that I have no plans of integrating it into my workflow until I'm forced to, in which case I will adapt to keep a job right, however, um, I think one of the things that, like, I've struggled with a little bit in this program is like kind of losing the, or starting to lose the, naivety is that a?
Speaker 2:word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go, of coming into this industry and being like it's about telling stories and sharing your art and then kind of being like no, it is like it is an industry that is a bought and sold product. And so I think the fear for me really comes from knowing that, at the end of the day, if it saves people money, it will be used. And the kind of fear of like somebody who came into this because I'm really passionate about storytelling and art and stuff the idea of like a story bought by greed and made by robots instead of, yeah, the artists who want to, who are able and want to do it, uh, it's is the fear yeah, it's that.
Speaker 2:It's that sense of capitalism and consumerism taking over the artist artistry of what animation is. Yeah, it's that.
Speaker 2:It's that sense of capitalism and consumerism taking over the artist artistry of what animation is and it's like oh, I don't like this right like like I've seen it happen from past work experiences where it's just like, yeah, like we're like they're throwing animators at it and it's like, yeah, we just gotta get it done because we like it's money and we need to pay them for the keep the lights on. It's like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, yeah, we just got to get it done because it's money and we need to pay for the keep the lights on. It's like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like it does hurt the romance. Right, it's like a Western, where it's like everyone has an idea what a Western is versus like what the reality of a Western actually is. Right, it's like it's harsh and it's cruel.
Speaker 2:You're like, okay, versus, like you know, it's like cowboys, you know like protecting the land, the frontiers, and like that's all bullshit. Yeah, so are there any? I guess, with how much have you guys seen of ai's evolution over the last, let's say, year that has made you go like, oh, it's fine, like it's just, it's a fad, and then being like, or is there something like, oh, we should maybe be concerned? Like what? What red flags to you seem concerning in your minds?
Speaker 3:if any, none I mean there is, yeah, I feel like for me's like the right now they're all talking about, like open AI, sora and that's like the big thing that's kind of taking over my Instagram feeds and everything. It's like oh no, and when I look at it I see, like these gorgeous artworks that I'm like they still lack a lot of like, especially the life and like that.
Speaker 3:There's this thing that animators bring into their work and it's like this joy of just working on it and you can tell by like the end result. And I still don't see it in any of the work, especially like the illustrations. There's so many photos out there that are ai and I can just like look into their eyes and know that's right not something that somebody made you know.
Speaker 3:so yeah, especially like now with the video stuff that's coming out, I can tell that it looks amazing, but it's still like missing. But some people will see that and be like oh, that's enough. Oh yeah, this is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's like it's just gotten so and more like developed that. It's like, oh no, some people will see this and be like no, this is it. This is a product by itself. And for us it's different because it's like we see that it's missing that like soul, but like some people don't care about that, they just want to sell it and have it merchandise. So that's like my biggest like red flag right now.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh no, it's starting to get to places where I'm like, oh, well, like that's my it's not that's my fear as well, as like, when I see this stuff, I I go like oh, I can pick out like that's fake as shit, like that's ai like and it because it all has the same look where it's like.
Speaker 2:You know, like this, the character's moving and everything in the background's kind of blurry and like it looks. It looks hyper realistic and like that's cool and everything. But it like, and like now, like with, like sora, like it loses its, like you can now hold a form properly. So it's not like jittery and it's not like, oh, my eyes like tracing everywhere. You're like holy shit, what's going on there. And but like to me, I'm like, oh, that looks crappy, right, like like there's no life to it. It's just like it's just moving parts. Right, it's just there's no soul to it.
Speaker 2:But my fear is, to an average audience member doesn't know animation, doesn't know the principles, doesn't know you know how to bring life to things, or has an artistic eye, they're like, yeah, I don't care. Like I don't know how many times I've seen on reddit just going through the comments, and people are like my girlfriend said, this looked amazing, they thought this was, you know, like jurassic park 5, and you're like, okay, you're like, oh, that's. And that's the part that concerns me. I'm like, oh, I don't like that feel where it's just like it's good enough.
Speaker 2:You're like, hmm, right. Or it's like, ooh, I know someone who posts things all the time. They're like look at this movie, it looks great. I'm like this looks so fucking fake. There is no Halo 7 coming out with Master Chief and some unicorn. This is not what you're talking about. You can tell it's fake, but they're like I believe it. You're like, oh, like, this is not what you're talking about and you're like you can tell it's fake, but they're like I believe it. And you're like, oh, this is not good, like it's. When you start realizing like not everyone has a critical eye, and you're like, oh, and not a lot of people like they.
Speaker 3:They don't see the this like massive production, like they don't know the difference. Some people just don't want that, you know, they just want something to consume. To them it doesn't make it really a difference if it looks like this or looks like that. It's just something that they can sit and like, watch or like if it's an artwork, they can buy or stuff like that. So that's the thing that's the most concerning to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, jumping onto that, I like. I think that it really ties into the way that we're being like hardwired to just eat dopamine right now, just like the like constant scrolling. You don't really, you aren't giving yourself the time to analyze it, and I feel like that's a time, a couple of times, where I've scared myself, where I haven't caught it right away, where I'm like looking at me and like man, that's a nice illustration, the rendering is way better than mine. And then I look and I'm like, oh wait, wait, no, that's AI and I didn't pick it up. And that's where I get like scared when it takes me a little too long to realize it.
Speaker 1:Um, because I'm like no, I've been, I've spent a lot of time and money in this program trying to get better. And if I can't pick it up right away, what is somebody who doesn't look at art all the time going to think? And I think that, beyond just the like, the scariness of it progressing to a point where people like can be tricked into thinking, it is the idea that people wouldn't care at all, because there's no way that you can like shake artistic integrity and like a care into people, as much as I wish you could, and that's a little scary to be like. Some people aren't going to care at all and I can't make that, no, that's the thing too.
Speaker 2:Some people aren't going to care at all and I can't make that. No, that's the thing too, like I understand from a student point of view. We're like even now, like times are tough, and they're like we just need to keep the lights on and if it's like, if I can cut costs, if I can cut costs, sorry. And then you know, keep the lights on with half the staff.
Speaker 2:you know like that's a pretty alluring thing and like, yeah, it's like as a person in the industry and, like you know, or people were about to be in the industry that, like that sucks, because you're like, well, shit, that's another employer I can't, and I can't get a job now. But I understand from their point of view. It's like, no, like this, this is employing who I can employ. Now, right, because, like, animation isn't cheap, like it's super expensive and time consuming and labor intensive, right, so, like, so I sent you guys a thing in the chat, I will post it on the video and I'll edit it in. So this was recently sent to me by Weldon P from hawkland college.
Speaker 3:yes, so we were just with him. Oh yeah, perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can say hi, um, so this is. This is china's first ai generated cartoon. And if I didn't tell you that it looks like a shitty toon boom animation. And that's the scary thing. It's like if you, if you're not critical and looking like you're like analyzing every scene, you'd be like, oh, this is just shitty tomb boom. But it's like no, everything's ai generated from the models, the backgrounds to everything.
Speaker 1:And it's like I saw a post about this on linkedin yeah, yeah, that's probably from weldon yeah yeah, he sent me.
Speaker 2:He's like this is the end of times. I'm like, oh shit, but uh. So some people are concerned about it, understandably, um, but uh, how do you guys feel from just watching a couple clips of it, from watching it? Just a raw reaction.
Speaker 1:I'm just curious um, I mean, I wasn't looking so much at the animation, I was studying yeah, for the background, and there was a couple where I was like yeah, I can tell that that's ai and that doesn't look great. Yeah, some things don't make sense background paint. But then there was one with the mountains where I paused it and was kind of looking at it for a hot minute and was like I wouldn't be able to tell on that yeah, there's somewhere yeah I think it looks pretty good.
Speaker 2:Somewhere you're like, oh yeah, that's clearly AI generated. And then, like the mountains are the same for me, I was like, ooh, is this done by an artist? And then I read the article and it was like everything in here is AI generated 100%. I'm like ooh, shit, yeah, what about you? Yama?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, like I was looking at the animated scenes and all of that, and it's still it's rough, it's it's. Yeah, it's rough, it's very rough, but it's scary how close it is yeah, like like this is this is something that maybe I could have done in like right before I entered the program, or like the first year and it took me learning throughout the program to be able to better myself. But like it's getting really close and I'm like not happy with it.
Speaker 2:So like this is the thing I was talking about six months ago, when I was like this is the thing with computers is like everything is stepped learning, where it's like it doesn't know how to do it doesn't know how to do it, doesn't know how to do it and oh, I know how to do something, and then it's like it retains it, it's not like a human, where it's like it's a gradual curve up, right like we build upon knowledge, right there, that was just like fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, oh, succeed, and then it goes to the next level and you're like there's no, there's no regression.
Speaker 2:Like a human, you stop doing that thing, you regress a little bit, right, you lose a little bit of skill and like, oh, I gotta get back on the bike. You know that's where that term comes from. You're like, okay, so with viewing this, maybe conservative video, um, how do you see the role of artists and animation in the industry possibly evolving with the future, where ai is more integrated into the industry? Like, like, do you see it as you know artists, like you said, at least maybe having to work with an AI model or an AI, you know AI tool, or do you think the craft is unique enough and demands human intuition, where there always be need of arts? What are your opinions on this, elise, from a background point of view?
Speaker 1:From a background point of view, yeah from a background point of view, I think it's hard to say that there's two wolves inside of me.
Speaker 2:Let's hear what these two wolves are howling about.
Speaker 1:Let's go the one says that, um, if they can save money, they will do it and, uh, my job is forfeit and that is the end of this and it's, it would like to say, it's the cynical, uh wolf. And then the other one, um, would like to believe that, that on some level, even the money making decision people understand that, like, even if it's just background art, it's still like human connection and like putting something out into the world and having people respond to that, and that's important. And at the end of the day, uh, I have spent time and money in this program and I'm going to be trying to get into this industry regardless, and what happens happens, um, but yeah, I kind of sway between those two and go, I don't know fair enough, I'm bringing along onto your guys plates, plates.
Speaker 2:I've been researching it, so I'm like here, guys, here's this typhoon of information. What about you, yama?
Speaker 3:they're like little scarecrow sometimes. But, um, where I'm like the positive side of me is like no, we're in an industry that has these. Like, the people that are in this industry are amazing and a lot of these artists, like they know the struggle of having to find jobs and wanting to put their passion in. So I'm like no, these people will know that you can't like replace the art that we're making. This is like too much. It's this precious thing that we've created and but like the more realistic side of me is like no, these are greedy corporations that are like they're the ones who want these products. So, in the end, enough with enough pushing, everything might like fall apart yeah so I'm like just staying positive and I know I have faith.
Speaker 3:I have faith in the people so I'm hoping they won't let us down, but you never know. And I'm still like in a place where I'm, I know for me, I'm still comfortable with the like the way it is right now. I know it's not going to take over for me and even if, like, they try to incorporate more things, it's still not going to be enough. You still need animators. So, like it's just about how fast it's growing right and that's the, the real concern, right it's.
Speaker 2:It's growing at a rapid pace. Like you look at like eight months ago and you're like, oh, that's cute. Now you're like it can do cartoons. Now you're like, oh shit, what the fuck?
Speaker 3:yeah, it took me two years had to learn how to do that exactly like.
Speaker 2:That's not fair yeah, it took this thing six months. You're like, yeah, right, so I guess, as we. Last thing I would like to say is what advice do you guys have for the next class about to enter the workforce, maybe next year? Like, what do you, what do you advise them on a at a technology that's rapidly evolving and changing? And what advice would you advise them on a technology that's rapidly evolving and changing, and what advice would you give them to enter their workforce next year? If you could give some advice, let's go with Yanma.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like the thing that we've heard the most throughout this year is chin up Because that's like the only thing that we can do. But it's kind of you. I come to the point where I'm like, no, this is like I have to do that. It's not like a choice, yeah, it's. It's an industry, like even before ai is we're in an industry that's always changing and you never know. You, you can't really settle. So it's more about kind of going with the flow and following the tides wherever they go, and never kind of beating yourself down too much, because you never know when the next opportunity is going to open. Really, and the only thing you can really do is keep working on yourself and make sure that you're happy with the work that you're producing and you're confident enough to know that you have a place in the industry for yourself. You have a place in the industry for yourself. So, like when you do go and start applying, you don't have to be that fearful chihuahua anymore. You can be like a little bit more developed than that.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, it's just, you know, keep honing. The more they're developing AI, the more you can keep practicing and you might not be as fast, but you're still growing and you're at a better pace right now, so you might as well keep learning what You're still growing and you're at a better pace right now, so you might as well keep learning.
Speaker 2:What about you, elise?
Speaker 1:What is your sage advice to your underlings that are about to be 30 years? Eventually, I agree with everything that you just said. That was very good.
Speaker 1:I think that the other thing would just be to like with the idea of going with the flow, also keeping in mind that, like your passion and the thing that led you into this is not a bad thing or something that might hold you back if you do end up having to work with AI, like, yes, am I a bleeding-hearted artist child who's running into some big ideals, into this industry? Yes, and if I have to work with AI, I'm going to still be like that and I'll have to figure out how to balance my morals and getting money to live. But I don't think that it's like a weakness to care and not just kind of accept things as they are, because I don't think that the fight is over yet, I don't think that we've lost any kind of battle for jobs yet and I could be wrong about that but I don't think that people are just willing to roll over and accept their fate. And so you know, maybe go with the flow or maybe fight, I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's perfect.
Speaker 3:Whichever one presents better.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, as we finish this podcast, I want to thank you guys both for being part of this, and I think the message from this is naivete is not a bad thing, but hope is awesome, and also all you can do is be hopeful for a brighter future, no matter how weird or strange or uncomfortable the future might turn out to be. So I want to thank you guys for talking to me today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Thank you for having us hey thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2:All right, there we go. Another one of the books. I want to thank our guests for contributing on the subject of AI and animation and hopefully you get something out of it. Here's hoping. The more conversations we have, the more clear the future will become, and hopefully, the more we talk, the less we demystify AI and show the realities of it. But again, no one has a crystal ball, so that can all change in a matter of seconds. But all we can do is hopefully shape the future that we want. Check in for our next episode. Until then, let's keep the conversation going. See you next time, goodbye. According to transmission,