Animator vs The Machine
With the explosion of AI, looking at what people in the animation industry think might occur in the future. Then talking to experts in artificial intelligence to help ground what this new technology is. Skynet or a tool? The downfall of animation or is this a possible new renaissance?
Animator vs The Machine
From Sailor Moon to AI: Discussing Ai and the Future of Entertainment with Rob Tinkler
What does it truly take to breathe life into characters on screen? Our guest, Rob Tinkler, voice actor extraordinaire and a creative virtuoso, guides us through the exhilarating world behind the scenes. Known for his roles in Sailor Moon, Cyber Chase, and even giving voice to the adorable Woodstock in the Snoopy Show, Rob’s journey is rich with experiences that unravel the magic of animation and voice acting. We even take a nostalgic detour to reminisce about Power Stone, a classic animated series close to my heart.
The crossroads where technology meets creativity is one of the focal points of the episode. Rob shares his insights on how Artificial Intelligence (AI) has begun to shape the entertainment industry. From simulating hyper-realistic environments on sets to aiding actors during auditions, AI has the potential to enhance authenticity in performances. However, we also delve into the darker side where AI could impact job prospects for extras and voice actors. It’s a thought-provoking discussion that emphasizes the need for regulations to safeguard these roles from becoming obsolete.
Finally, we shift our focus to Rob's work on Tiny Raider and discuss the evolution of podcasting as a medium for creative expression. Rob lays bare his thoughts on the impact of AI on the industry's creatives and offers a sneak peek into the future of entertainment. This episode is all about linking past experiences, current technologies, and future expectations in a journey that spans the exciting landscape of voice acting and animation. Be prepared, the conversation is as riveting as one of Rob's performances. So, tune in, and brace yourselves for an enlightening ride!
Perfect All right. On today's podcast we have a very special guest. He is an actor, producer, director, writer, podcaster and voice actor who's been doing this for over 20 years. He has four podcasts, which one Eight Tiny Ranger, has been made into a graphic novel which you can purchase over here somewhere. I post this yeah, right there, perfect, yeah. He's also been in films like the Tuxedo with Jackie Chan, and Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, but the breadth of his work is in voice acting. He's done things from Sailor Moon to the adventures of Sam and Max, angelina, Conda, cat and the Hat, george of the Jungle, jacob Tutu, cyber Chase, kingdom Force, and is the voice of Woodstock in the new Snoopy show for Apple Plus. I'd like to introduce Rob Tinkler.
Rob:Hi everyone, hi everyone.
Alex:Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Like I said, we said offscreen. When I was going through your IMDb, I realized you were on one of my favorite shows I could only catch on a Sunday at a random time on YTV called Power Stone. It was like the one piece. It was like one piece and Power Rangers mixed together and I loved it it was.
Rob:It was a great show.
Alex:It was a great show. It was really well done.
Rob:The animation was beautiful.
Alex:It was one of the last shows. What was it? A dub show, sammi the.
Rob:Script I get up in front of the mic, in front of a big screen. They would have a rhythm of a band.
Alex:I would always have a golf ball. I would pound through shows so fast. It was a really fun. It was like a. I felt very connected to that character Into it at the time yeah. It was a great character, even the design of him he's like red aviator suit. A big skunk. Yeah, everything was junky on him. He's a big, broad dude. Like every episode of this podcast, I would like you to tell me what is your definition of AI. My definition of AI is it is a tool, it's a universal tool that allows in a creative sense.
Alex:The artist to save their best creative mojo in a very precise way, in a very specific way, as opposed to just doing all the heavy lifting. I think it goes from like art animation to voiceover, to I see the scariness of it. But I think we'll get ahead of that. Any new?
Rob:technology is a little bit scary.
Alex:To the lead. I was afraid of the loom People wanted to make them by hand. And now you've got that process, but it still exists, if you want to get that handcrafted rug, but you're going to pay for it Because of the time it takes.
Rob:So really it?
Alex:I don't think certain art or anything is going anywhere. I think there will be a variation for it. It just allows you to get rid of some of the heavy lifting stuff that you want to do anyway.
Rob:And we already do it in a sense.
Alex:We're not necessarily using it. We are using it. But the computer isn't generating it, but most certainly we are.
Rob:I go back to the old.
Alex:Scooby-Doo series by Hannah Barbera. Just your super friends and they have the running scene, the run cycle.
Rob:The host running and they would just use that animation over and over. And over and over.
Alex:And to eliminate the heavy lifting, having to draw it every time.
Rob:Sure.
Alex:It was cost saving measure. They just used the same cycles over and over again. And Disney used it in the 70s with what were they doing? Like the Jungle Book, the Robin Hood movie, they took the dance sequence of Baloo the Bear dancing and they used it in Robin Hood for the what's his name? Little John.
Rob:It's the exact same animation. They just traced over top of it. Yeah, it's crazy, and they did it in Alice in Wonderland. They just used the rotoscope.
Alex:The rotoscope Like it was actually a joke of somebody performing. And then just animating over and over the actress going down the hole. Yeah, you're like whatever, you're fine. Now you can, they're gonna save money. Back then they knew you couldn't go back and check, you couldn't. Yeah, it was. Yeah, you were one and done, that was it. Yeah, it was it, it was it. It went, that was it, that was it, that was it, it was. No, you couldn't even go to the block video, which is not, but they couldn't go and compare movies side by side.
Alex:They knew that they're like oh, they're like oh, this works, let's do it again. Let's do it again yeah. It's a bit. It's a bit soul-sucking. But Go ahead, craig, you know it's a bit soul-sucking, it's a bit soul-sucking.
Rob:But it worked. But it worked, yeah, it's beautiful, it's beautiful.
Alex:Each sequence of that animation is beautiful and it's on way, it is like it still holds up to this day. Like Allison, wonderland is still regarded as like one of the most beautiful animations of like the golden era of Disney. But like yeah like you said, like they, they did some cheats, which is like rotoscoping and stuff like that, but no one really thinks about it, right? They're just like oh no, it's beautifully animated, which is like you know those stuff lasts like, like true, there's a reason they don't hear those like super friends episode episode.
Alex:Irrable like they look at. These are any of the characters they look terrible here. Lose the audience, the audience immediately. But but you look at the Fleischer's? Fleischer's.
Rob:Superman and the and the detail, detail, that and that holds up, and that and that is you know that is a pantheon of classic animation, animation. Be there. So so For the quick for the turnout.
Alex:Sure, now it doesn't matter, doesn't?
Rob:matter. Yeah you know, you know, you know I.
Alex:Don't know, I'm totally split on it. Part of me is like, part of me is like Right, I see, I see the problem, my, my, Creative side creative side. Let's get ahead of. How do we get ahead of this? I was a tool out of the way in a way that to to, so that I mean. I mean so so. For example for example, I'm getting ahead of getting your head of one of your questions. All right, so great it's a little. Just keep going into it. It's all good, okay.
Alex:So, so like, oh, you're like, oh, in voice acting voice actor experience experiences, kind of yes. Yes for instance on the show I play Woodstock, woodstock. Woodstock makes a lot of like a lot of like funny, you know chirping noises and there's a lot of repetition. In fact, one of the fact, one of the show is that like when, when would stock would stop? Lose it on?
Alex:Mine it, they use it, they use it the same the same sounds they want the same, they want the same sounds, and that's, and that's part of the charm. It loses it in the same way every time. Also speaks to him. But I think they are hard, they are harkening back to the original original. Special specials like he would literally literally record it, record it and animate it, and I made it just and just used all the same stuff over and over, probably because there is a charm to it so, so in the first in the first season seasons, you're building up all of this library, woodstocks dialogue reactions and now and now they're at the point where they can turn on special specials and I'll just get sent to check.
Rob:Because they, because they've the library, the library there are, there are actors, actors who who don't like, don't like that.
Alex:I know well-known actors who demand to demand that they go in every time, every time, but being that I have other things on the go.
Rob:Writer writer like that is like that I am. I.
Alex:Appreciate it, the fact that I can just, they can just draw on that on library library and use that and I don't have to drive to drive to the studio. Parking sitters Just made my life easier, a little easier so so because they because they're using it, so so.
Rob:I the one, the one I made sound like, sound like what's his name?
Alex:Welcome, you were. No, there's no, there's a way to sort of get on, you know, to use it, to use it to your advantage versus being a victim. You're being exploited by it, right there's always gonna be going to be exploits, always gonna be, always gonna be artists Get exploited. You know you know it doesn't matter, yeah, somebody, somebody finds, finds our clip art on Google, on Google and then uses that on their poster or their whatever, like, whatever, like our project.
Alex:You're still taking that on that one to happen to happen, right, you know, you know the artist can get paid for it.
Rob:What, what, what we probably probably need of like you?
Alex:own your, your image.
Rob:You own your own your voice Law, law and a but that would something, something that we would lobby would lobby for that.
Alex:Nobody, that nobody can come along and take your face.
Rob:Take your face and put it on, on In an ad, in an ad, right it's still happens always, yeah, it's always gonna explain it but yeah, there's like a.
Alex:There's a South Park episode about that. Where it was, what was it? One of the characters, randy, that dad Was revealed in one of the seasons to be Lord the singer and, like the music company, owns the rights to all past musicians. So you had, like Kurt Cobain, like selling shotguns and you know stupid stuff like that.
Alex:But it was one of those questions that I was thinking about, which is like it was. The first time I had this thought was when I was watching Rogue one, where they had, you know, like the digital copy of Peter Cushing's and Carrie Fisher after they passed.
Rob:Yes, yes, okay.
Alex:Where, like, where's the line between the person and the character? Like, right, how much can you get Peter Cushing's digit advertise? You know Disney parks, you know me. So my question is like where? What are the ethical and potential misuses of these technologies, like deep fakes for actors like yourself? Yeah, they, I Remember that I remember that road one so excited, so excited, because I was excited, I was excited.
Rob:Where Darth Vader, shuttle and Garded like.
Alex:Killing soldiers, soldiers in such a violent way, showing stars, and you're like, that's why, that's why everyone's scared of them, that's why that's why it was obvious, it was done, man and that. But then they got carry. Carry your in your life, it's care, oh, it's good. Yeah, like, yeah, it's like a rubber, it's like a rubber face version. Yeah. It, it was immediately immediately disconcerting, for a glimpse, for a glance. It was like same thing in the new Indian.
Rob:Jones movie where they showed young version of super excited. And then he came out of the town and you were like okay, okay, maybe cut, maybe just like.
Alex:Like back in the shadows or bit for something. Yeah, you know, but it's there, but it's. The unfortunate thing is those take you out of the. They don't, they don't you hate you, those, those.
Rob:They're trying to try to. Mercy world and, and it does, the opposite.
Alex:It does the opposite, makes you think like. See, and and yeah, you don't want your, you don't want your audience For the story at, which brings me to the other, the other, which is which is authenticity, I think is human being always always authenticity. Once upon a time, some genius Reading car, reading mother's mother's, it said the most perfect thing you could say to your mother, because you're either you're either Don't want to say it. Don't want to say it because you're doing various, your embarrassed. You're thinking of the word. Think of the words.
Rob:Um, uh, whatever your reason.
Alex:Whatever your reason is the perfect work. But if you don't like something on there, your mom is gonna.
Rob:Your mom is gonna.
Alex:You don't sign your name, something is over over.
Rob:You're dead, dead cards are great.
Alex:Cards are everywhere, everywhere they are, they are like it's like norm on arm on every holiday, holiday, whatever, whatever. Hand over, hand over a reading card Uh, but, human see that it's like where's the authentic, where's where's the where's? So XO.
Rob:I love you. I love you, yeah, I think, I think you know you know Same thing happening music and music y'all like we all like you know, like when, when, when, when, digitized, digitized I mean it came in and you can't be like that like that. We, we to appreciate, appreciate the subtle, subtle. You know, you know, you know with alive with a live drummer the fact that that his humanity.
Alex:Manatee makes his pace Slow a little bit, a little bit song, and then catch up again. We, we like, we like those things, we are. Love, those in love, really, really those, those one or one or just me, and they, they. They're like okay, how do we make this last? How?
Rob:do we? How do we bring out those? Bring out those imperfections.
Alex:We want this to look no we don't want it to look beautiful, beautiful. We actually want it to look that shitty, but you don't want it to look flawed, flawed and because it's those, those flaws that we're the I twitch and then the jerky. The jerky, like I'm, like I've been to her. You know that. You know that the subtle gas drawing of those things, those things, that, that that are authentic, that we go.
Rob:That's real. That's real. I feel connected to that.
Alex:Right people like I do.
Rob:I know I know, vinyl for all it's, for all it's, you know perfect, you know it is, you know it is imperfect.
Alex:Me less perfect, less perfect on the surf, on the surface. Then then the digital Washes. It washes, it, presses it and it makes us a file they filed. They can be carry a million million songs, but but. People, people want that. What that? Yeah, yeah, you're right. People crave authenticity, but they also crave bigger and more. A good example that is the new LED wall sets, these called stagecraft. They use it like the Mandalorian and like the fable men's and stuff like that. Where?
Alex:it like yeah, yeah it's just these large rendered scenes with proper lighting, so that actors can realize what they're acting against and versus like you and McGregor and the Clone Wars. It's just a blue screen and looking like I'm just gonna dodge things, I guess, and try their best. You know me right. So with that, with that thought of authenticity, are there? Can you think of any good uses for AI in your opinion when it comes to helping actors?
Alex:I think that I think that's a great because, because I Think that's a great one, because if you're putting you know, you know, you know, and I know people that have won on the Mandalorian and DeLorean, and and they're like they're like. What are they? What are they called the boy? Oh yeah, I was trying to figure out what it was called. It's like a word, it is.
Alex:The sound state is the stage and they have ups and furniture, and then and then a real time, real time, you, whatever planet ever on it, there on, or the office, or whatever, the sky feel, star feel and and it helps, it helps them create, create the authentic versus on a versus where?
Rob:you're like the director comes out.
Alex:It's like okay. Okay, this is what the rain is with the reindeer Versus like being able to you know react in real time to that. And use that, use that we've helped to help me, and then they augment it in post in post. I think that that is so incredibly, incredibly useful bringing out an authentic performance Mm-hmm, I think that is so incredibly useful, bringing out an authentic performance Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, and, and you know, like you know, like, face it, I think it, I think it.
Alex:Those things, those things, they're you know they're, you know the. You hear stories about those directors that are like like you know. Oliver Stone, Oliver Stone was really like he was really mean mean and and would say horrible things to the actors, and then they'd roll, and then they'd roll.
Rob:And if you could you know it's?
Alex:because you know it's because you're trying to put them into the battle Right, and so you're like trying to act them there. You want to, you know, but if you can, put them in the battle you can put them in the battle.
Rob:At least looking around, looking around Can they have a little more empathy or or, or, or.
Alex:You know identify with them or you're going to get that realism. I mean the abuse, the abuse on set, on set, on set.
Rob:On set, on set, on set, on set, on set, on set, on set On set.
Alex:On set On set, on set, on set, on set, on set, on set On set Right.
Rob:So she was叫 hesitate.
Alex:Like I talked about forcing the abomination, she pushed the abomination away. She said it through her own feet, you know the only, the only time I mean, I mean I've seen people, people have a voice program that can basically, basically read, read into the voice program and it can emulate your voice. But from an acting from an acting point of view that would allow you to submit yourself for 50 auditions a day Like I would never have time to do that, but if the computer, and then I can go and then you get a call back or you get a gig and you can do the gig authentically.
Alex:So it, it, there's, there's like, yeah, you can use it as a tool, or you can run and fear, run and fear, miss you suit, rob and die.
Rob:Yeah, but I want one. Look, I'm insect over ones.
Alex:So, like, like you were saying, like there's a program that can record your voice and send it out to a bunch of dull auditions, right? Is that your only personal experience with in the industry, with AI, with voice acting, that I have seen so far?
Alex:yes, I mean, I've seen it, I've seen it the movies have seen like extras, like there was like one, there was like a still frame that I saw on one of the socials where there was like people sitting in a crowd of basketballs, you know, like in a gymnasium and on a stint on a stint stand and and the front row was like real people clapping and the row and the row and then people back, back, back, the row behind was like, was like like like full full, bad, bad. The Rockin Scorpion King like ah, ah in a shot shot not looking, not looking.
Alex:Yeah. You know, but again, but again. That's an extra, that's losing a job that.
Rob:But but you know, maybe, maybe, maybe it will because it allows us to do this heavy lifting. It will enable us to like, as long as they're getting paid like if you like if you if you sell your image, sell your image and do a and do a.
Alex:You know a three dimensional scan and and get compensated every time, every time, for that usage. For that usage you don't have to show up.
Rob:You don't have to show up like.
Alex:Right, like. Everybody wants to like.
Rob:Everybody wants to like work, work, work with you. That will, that will, that will happen. That will, that will happen. Yeah.
Alex:Like at least, at least they're hopefully paying the actors. It's not like they're using like a generative text to voice and just like now we're not gonna pay actors right, because I like. That's when I, when I heard, like I did, I think two episodes, I did like a whole episode of just a text to voice and trying to sell myself as someone who's not really someone, and how did it work? How did it work? How did it work.
Rob:I didn't know.
Alex:Uh yeah, it was like episode six. It was like it was decent, but if you didn't know like, if you weren't paying attention, you'd be like, oh, that's a real person, because it sounds pretty effective, really, really. I took myself, put myself in a hoodie and then did that wins protection thing, where you just black out the figures, just have a silhouette, right, right, and it's pretty. If you don't know the trick, I think it's like I had a couple of people like, oh, I thought it was a real person for at least 20 minutes at the podcast, really, really. Then I was like, well then, it was effective.
Rob:Then so it was effective. It was effective, so it was effective.
Alex:Yeah, so it's like maybe. To pay you for your voice print or your image yeah, so that's where they're going to do it anyway. They're going to do it anyway.
Rob:There's always like it's the classic story of the artist getting screwed over, screwed over, it's the Nike swoosh. It's on every product and that person that won me 40 bucks and it's the. It's the. I think it was a voice, it was, it was, it was like one of those like it was a big corporation.
Alex:Their voice used in basically all their interface stuff. Needed help what the company was. Who's a big, who's a big?
Rob:And the actor got paid but a piton.
Alex:A piton, like something that's used millions of times. And then they had no, we had no recourse. Recourse. Because, technically, contract was signed it was all above board. Yeah, you got paid. You just paid no more, no more Contract. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he just did. It was for and it was for ever and ever and ever, and the end of time. And I don't know if the company's ashamed and ashamed and you're switching it up, switching it up Something different, but there are always those stories.
Alex:There are always those stories, there are always those stories yeah. There's always going to be people that are going to, you know, skirt around the rules or try to make quick profit doing you know the shadiest kind of methods, right, right, but like that's never going to change. Like, from animation to acting, to anything in the entertainment industry, there's always bad actors and you know people that are up and up, the good actors, right, right. So when I, you know, like, you know, like even from a writing standpoint, again, you can get that first draft.
Rob:You can, you can do the boot, you know do the boots and get that first draft, first draft. You know, you know out the draft draft, then you can just edit it and put in the authenticity.
Alex:It'll be interesting to be interesting to see if people do see, to see if that will culturally change us.
Alex:Like if, like if if if the if the if the reads are all really musical and musical and welcome to the, to the, to the whatever whatever, maybe, maybe we will change. We'll change the cadence of our to speak to speak. You know way. You know way that is. You know, copy that, copy that all of a sudden you're doing something different. Because there's not, because there's not just in that one like oh, it's so real and unpredictable and all those right.
Rob:You know, it was right yeah.
Alex:The music, the language, like when I did yeah.
Alex:Like when I did that episode, I don't know, I spent like hours just fixing cadences, like adding extra space, because every space was like an extra time but it delivery would be different. So sometimes I had to like make the word one word, with no spacing. So I understand like it flows like that. But it was like okay, now I'm just engineering speech, now I'm like okay. So it was very. It was a. At the end of the day I was like am I really saving? Like would you really be setting time and money or would it be easier just to get an authentic voice to get what you want? Maybe do like two or three passes.
Rob:Yeah, for sure, for sure yeah.
Alex:Yeah. So I guess my question I have is what stuff like out there, like that, like the generative text and stuff like that, what safeguards and regulations do you think should be put in place for actors, voice actors like yourself?
Rob:Yeah, well, yeah. Like you know, like some kind of some kind of mandate to you know, like I know it's sort of like you own your own, your own image, your own, your own voice, you know something or something you know, we haven't, we haven't really conceived of that.
Alex:Really conceived of that and it might affect the general public like, for instance, when somebody posts on socials they no longer own that image. It no longer belongs to them. It belongs to the social media and they can use it as they wish promotion mission, all that sort of stuff. So I think it actually affects everyday people more than they think, more than it matters to them, more than it matters to them.
Rob:If your kid is like you know if you're in.
Alex:Your kid shows up in an ad and you're like what?
Rob:What, what, and it's because they got something off of something off of.
Alex:I remember, I remember years ago, my cousin, my aunt was my aunt was flipping through a magazine.
Rob:Came across a picture of her son, my cousin, my cousin, she was like, she was like what?
Alex:It was him and he was holding, he was holding, he was holding a leaf in the camera. It was like some guy, some guy, shutterbug, shutterbug photographer whatever took a picture, took a picture that would never, never happen. Now, now I think those things do happen. So, I think people will feel like yeah, I gotta protect my image. I don't want my image, I don't want my image to show up in deep fakes or ads for things.
Rob:Yeah, yeah.
Alex:Yeah, like with that, yeah, so it could affect, could affect broad, broad, broad swaths of people as people, as people may not be, may not be as as niche as just just actors, actors. Right, yeah, for sure, like, even, like. I know that's primarily why, like Disney, like there's a long thing in animation where the rights to Mickey Mouse should have expired in like the nineties, and then they forced Congress to like extend it, and then they sent it for like 30 years and then they extended it again by like you know some like it's like, technically, mickey Mouse should be in public domain.
Alex:I think it's like you get a hundred years for that character and then everything goes in public domain. That's why I, like you can have Popeye's supplement gym everywhere, because it's technically, popeye is a public domain character.
Rob:Really, really. I didn't know that.
Alex:Yeah, so there's, it's both or like Tarzan. That's why you can have variations of Tarzan. Right, right, the lock home.
Rob:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex:Exactly, yeah, so it's designed to like make it more innovative With Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse is interesting because it is such a specific part of their brand and they actively use it, and that's what they're doing.
Rob:It's not like a Popeye. A Popeye Are, they Are, they Are they Are, they Are, they, are they.
Alex:You know, it's one of those things right, it's not a brand. It's not a brand, but this is kind of associated with the brand. I guess they're probably going to get extended again. So people will have to weight on those when they wear boots on those blue-legged Mickey T-shirts and it just head on.
Alex:I don't know Jab of the hudder, sure something else they own, why not? So it seems like through this conversation that, even with the costs of productions increasing, at the end of the day, the consensus needs to be people crave authenticity. Yes, not just yes, not just. Not just like the, not just costs becoming lower and like making things easier with AI. Like AI can do great things, mm-hmm, like. A perfect sample is like there's tons of AI art out there, but it all starts to look the same and doesn't. There's no style difference. There's no. Everything's very smooth and polished. There's no style. Oh, it's so there's. It harkens back to authenticity. So with acting, do you believe that's the same thing, where people are just gonna crave Authenticity, and that's something that a machine cannot replicate.
Rob:I do. I do and it's, uh, it's the difference between. Do you remember that? Remember that scene in Was it it's Thor which should it ragged a rock, where Matt Damon was playing low key?
Alex:Yeah, yeah, they're like a fear. They're like a fear.
Rob:Yeah, I feel like it's like you know, you know if I'm going. If I'm going through the media, I'm looking at, I'm looking at you know you want, you know you want, I always, I always stop like like artists, like drawing drawings, because you, because you you know, and then you know, and then you see them. Evolution. I don't know that, I you know, you know versus like, versus like a.
Alex:AI generated a generative art work of art slowly, pixel by pixel, be revealed revealed, I'm less likely to stop that.
Rob:I think. I think it's it's people, people are.
Alex:It's like, it's like, it's like, even from a negative, from a negative, they say like they say like a baby crying.
Rob:Baby crying is like it shakes us.
Alex:It shakes us to our core. That's why people get on planes. I'd never get frustrated on planes. I have babies, so I'm always like that baby's hungry. I'm always analyzing.
Rob:He's wearing his itch.
Alex:He's wearing his itch. Take it off. Take it off. It rattles and it's like because there's the humanity behind it. It's like hard wired to look for that authenticity.
Rob:And when we see, when we see Carrie.
Alex:Fisher as Prince of Layout generated we go, we have the exact opposite effect.
Rob:Revolve, it's revolution to the, you know, to it, and I have to say some of the AI generated art. It's a bit revolving.
Alex:Not even the content, not even like that. It's not even a revolving picture of something disgusting happening. It's like Adam.
Rob:West.
Alex:It's a child's dress, man, you know, like as he grew up.
Rob:But it's like. But it's like there's something to it. It's creepy.
Alex:It reminds me those, it reminds those kids books where you like you flip the top and you put like a hat on a cowboy and it's like with an astronaut versus like a duck boots. You're like what is this? Yeah, but it's like real. And you're like it's not versus like.
Rob:Photoshop, photoshop, photoshop.
Alex:Photoshop, photoshop, photoshop, photoshop, photoshop, photoshop, photoshop, photoshop. Yeah, yeah, it can make it can make.
Rob:Artists lives, lives.
Alex:Yes, we just got to figure out how you use it properly and how to use it wouldn't agree with that, and and it's like it comes down to you owning your own your own image or your own Art art.
Rob:you own it.
Alex:Yeah, you own it. Perfect, as we're wrapping things up, is there anything we missed or you'd like listeners to know about? I think we talked about everything, that's. Thank you for talking about it. Thank you for mentioning my book.
Rob:It is out now and if you wanna try it out, try it out. There's a podcast called Tiny Raider, which is the book that's based on and so that for free? Are you kids or something?
Alex:Like that, like that, like sort of into reading. They can listen to the podcast or read the book Sort of. Perfect.
Rob:I hope so.
Alex:I hope so. Podcasting's great idea incubator. That makes me think what is this show going?
Rob:to be. What else can we do? What else can we do?
Alex:What's your next?
Rob:evolution.
Alex:Oh, I don't know what about the way you see. What's your next evolution? Perfect. Thanks again, rob, for doing this With that, with that, thanks, bye have a good one.
Rob:Thanks for watching.