Animator vs The Machine
With the explosion of AI, looking at what people in the animation industry think might occur in the future. Then talking to experts in artificial intelligence to help ground what this new technology is. Skynet or a tool? The downfall of animation or is this a possible new renaissance?
Animator vs The Machine
Sage Wisdom, Burn it Down!Exploring the Intersection of AI and Animation: A Conversation with Veteran Animator Weldon Poapst
Get ready for a fascinating trek through the rapidly evolving landscape of animation with our esteemed guest, Weldon Poapst. A revered veteran with four decades of industry experience, Weldon charts the changes from paper and pencils to the digital age - and now, the dawning era of AI. Will AI spell the end of traditional animation or become its greatest ally? The answers might astound you.
This episode takes you on a whirlwind tour of AI's potential impact on art and animation. We delve into the heart of the debate - will AI rob animation of its unique identity and hand-painted charm, or turn it into a powerful tool enhancing creative expression? Listen as Weldon shares his rare insights into how AI could reshape the industry's future. From budgets and jobs to teaching animation, we explore it all.
But our journey doesn't stop there. We take you behind the scenes to uncover the daunting challenges of employing AI in animation - the complexity of animating facial features, for instance. Listen to the captivating tales of Weldon's journey in teaching traditional animation to a new generation adapting to AI. Hear how AI could be a boon for amateur animators, and how the rise of digital animation has altered the ways we teach and learn this art. This is an episode you won't want to miss.
The sky is falling. The sky is falling Not so much, but there's definitely something coming. Can you feel it? It's been watching us for a while. You're talking to us, influencing our decisions, making art for us. Hell, i even heard Wendy's wants to hire it to take your late night burrow runs. Guessing from this, you probably guess what I'm talking about AI. Now, i know this is not a new subject matter to talk about. The last six months alone, we had this big boom of technology, from chat, gpt to stable diffusion, dreamy eye and about a hundred other things.
Speaker 1:However, all these big leaps forward made me wonder could AI animate And I don't mean like, i don't mean moving from A to B, i mean traditionally anime with all 12 principles animating 3D and 2D. My first thoughts of this topic were yeah probably maybe, and that uncertainty bothered me.
Speaker 1:The more I looked into it, the more questions I had. So, as an average animator who took away, has bags under his eyes and addicted to caffeine, i decided to try to find out. With a basic knowledge of AI, i want to talk to people in the field of animation and get to know what people thought and what they believed could happen in the near future. Then talk to some experts in AI and see if these concerns or theories had any validity to them. My name is Alex Plant. your assets in front of your screen. turn those ears on and let's find out. Is this the boogeyman crawling up on our beds or just sully trying to say hi? Is this a strange monolith tower before us or a new tool to bring about human revolution? Is this a friend or a foe? Is it judgment day or did we just fall asleep in front of the TV again? I don't know, but let's find out together in Animator vs the Machine.
Speaker 2:Come on thing Pick in.
Speaker 1:Alright, I want to hit the. We have here Weldon Pops. So, Weldon, how would you tell the Phantom listeners a little about yourself?
Speaker 2:I've been in animation all my life, so 40 years in the industry. I went to Sheridan for animation, got out in the world. I was in the world of animation when it was still paper and pencils, when we still shot on film old school And I lived through I guess it was mid-80s when computers came, in 90s when software started to come in And I've worked at a couple of studios through my lifetime, had a chance to do everything from deliver coffee to important people to, i guess the pinnacle I hate to say that of my career. I was producing down south in Hollywood Making big time cartoons for the kids on TV.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Now I teach part-time at college in Ottawa, Algonquin College, And I am the recruitment coordinator at Mercury Filmworks.
Speaker 1:Nice. So a question I ask everyone is what is your definition of AI?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a damn good question. Artificial intelligence I just picture the Isaac Asimov theory of robots taking over the world.
Speaker 1:Right, you have the Terminator mindset of just like SkyNet taking over And it's like oh that's it, yep, we're doomed. That's a fair analysis. Speaking of your pack, you said you worked with Star of the Paper. You've been around with software's introduced, so you've been around. You've seen the highs and lows of many things in animation. You were around when 3D animation came on the rise, And I've always heard stories of animation like oh, this is the end.
Speaker 1:We're dealing with digital animation in the late 2000s And they're like oh, people are like this is the end, we're not going to be able to draw anymore. Do you feel with AI? does the hysteria around AI feel the same as it was for those two things?
Speaker 2:Can I swear on this podcast? Yeah, all good. Okay, good, i'm going to say short answer is yes, but I remember well, actually I don't know whatever year it was. Someone can fact check on me. I think it was 1991 or something. whatever it was When Toy Story came out.
Speaker 2:I went to the theaters and I saw Toy Story, which, by today's standards, if you look at it, is very rudimentary and crude. I remember going to the theaters and walking out from seeing Toy Story and just going let's see, we're all fucked. Reach for the sky, those buggers have done it. And I think then you had computer paint, when you got rid of all of the anchors and painters and checkers And that all became done in a computer and hundreds of jobs were lost And budgets didn't go And you actually went down because you got rid of a whole bunch of people. And then, when software came in, same thing again and budgets have not gone up because it's now 2023. They've actually gone down because, well, you don't need this person, you don't need that person, you don't need this person. So, so AI is just another inner iteration of that sort of push forward. Can it do it today? No, can it do it in five to 10 years from today, probably Right.
Speaker 1:That's been. my thought is like when I've been talking to people, a lot of them are like wow, i can't like. the perfect example Everyone goes to is they can't draw hands. Right, that's the everyone's go to answer.
Speaker 2:What's can't draw a hand today?
Speaker 1:That's what I mean. It's just like, yeah, that's just because it understands contour Right, Like the reason why it has the nine, like the nine fingers is because it's adding thumbs on each side and giving you a whole row, And it's just like I'll get a 50-50 shot getting it right And it's like you're kind of right, I guess, And some weird.
Speaker 2:But then you just if it screws it up, you just press the button again, Exactly.
Speaker 1:Like minus. You know four hands you're like, or four fingers, and it's like sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, i've played, you know, with the home user sort of AI stuff and said, you know, draw me a hamster with a gaddling gun and a you know a sergeant's helmet on, And it didn't always work, but you know, you adjust, you know, do it again, it gets better, it gets better. That's just rudimentary software that we have now for people at home to play with for fun, right. So commercial software, where they're just keep improving, it's going to happen eventually.
Speaker 1:Right And that's been the bias I think a lot of people have talked to so far in the animation community have had where they're comparing it to the. You know the available software like stable diffusion and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a little bit everyone, but like behind closed doors.
Speaker 1:That software is way better, like that's probably the stuff they were using five years ago. And I go here, you go, yeah, and you're like okay, exactly, yeah, so. Exactly So. We've also seen AI, like there was a show on Netflix that used AI for all their backgrounds. Do you see a benefit to this or is it a slippery slope, Because?
Speaker 1:like you can use it to make model sheets, expression sheets, where I've seen that too where, like, one guy took a happy face and just using stable diffusion, was able to make like a whole series of expressions in a matter of 10 seconds on on model. So do you think it's worth it, or a slippery slope?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's not a slippery slope, it's a cliff.
Speaker 1:There's no slope at all. Yeah, it's just a dead drop It is.
Speaker 2:Is that good, is that bad? I don't know. You get into the humanity of art, which is what people will always argue Right, and I honestly think there is real validity to that. But you can just keep pressing the button on the machine and it costs you zero dollars to press that button Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, versus someone spending hours working on this one.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I do know there was. there was a series in Japan as well. It might be the same one where they they had the AI paint the backgrounds. Yeah, that's really. And they said they had to click the button. click the button, no, adjusted a couple of times and then at the very, very, very end it was touched up by hand to give it life and personality, as opposed to perfectly cold, sterile painting of a background. So humans are always going to be in there if it's nothing else but to press the button. But in a lot of cases, as it stands now, they still have humans at the end sort of touching it up Exactly Like so it it's cheaper for a production, but it's evil.
Speaker 1:It loses that soul of what makes art unique, right I? think so Or like, like I said before, where art is our way of self expression and identity and stuff like that. So if a computer can do it, what do we have Right? It's like right. It's tricky right, Because it's like on one side, on the side of the pendulum, it's, it's evil, like you said, where it's just like, OK, we're losing so much, But at the same time you could be gaining benefits. So it's this tightrope rock of like. where's the line?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they've now got AI that can replicate a Taylor Swift song. Do you want another Taylor Swift song?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I remember reading it made Michael Jackson. I could be wrong, but it was like a Michael Jackson and Bruno Mars collaboration And it was so good that people thought it was real. And then Bruno Mars was like I didn't approve this. Who did this?
Speaker 2:And it was just some fan that used the AI to make both and it worked And it's like yeah where's the line between Yeah, that's a whole other issue, but yeah, so that's that's hunt the computers down and smash. Just erase them all, right, yep, yeah, you're right up there You're the front, but it's, it's too late, it's you know, the case of Oppenheimer. I have become death. Right, this has been invented, we can't uninvent it. So how do we control and use it? I guess is our best Defense Plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, yeah, that's rather big too. It's just like it all depends on the first one to get there and set the bar Right. So the first one to set the rules sets it for everyone, and that's the trick, like, of current filming. Right now there's the big movie, like big movie movie. Right now It's the Spider-Man movie that just came out. Cross the spider-verse It's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Have you seen it?
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, is it great, i haven't seen it. I've seen it for the first night.
Speaker 2:I better than the first one. I thought, Oh beautiful.
Speaker 1:Because I've seen the art and it looks. It looks beautiful.
Speaker 2:And, like that, a lot of that art comes.
Speaker 1:Some of it like a little tweening. For a lot of it comes with AI, where it was machine learn, yeah, and it predicts just like a normal tween in harmony, but it's just a smarter version of that tween. So it's like, okay, yeah, still human, there's still that marriage between human and machine. It's nice, but eventually that might shift. Sorry, we want to say pops.
Speaker 2:But you said it. It's just like a tween that a piece of software harmony would do and harmony is doing the same thing. I do keep pose, i do keep pose And I tell the software. You know there's three tweens between these posts. You do them And I want you to favor this side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Or like this is your back, This is your breakdown. I'm going to do it. This is how I want the breakdown to be. I'm not going A to B. I'm going A, A, A then B.
Speaker 2:Exactly So. is that not evil?
Speaker 1:That's what I've been trying to talk to people. I'm like I don't understand the difference between an AI enemy versus a tween. Essentially, it's splitting hairs. now It is.
Speaker 2:It's all computer software helping us making decisions. As long as we make the decisions, as long as we say where the keys are, what the look is, what the lighting is, then you have some human input as opposed to literally. you know a janitor sitting in a closet going clink, clink, clink, impressing a button. There has to be an artist leading the machine Right.
Speaker 1:So I have a question then If there has to be a human behind this machine with this, say, in five years they have software able to properly animate. You see, this is the new position for juniors to basically coach the AI how to properly animate.
Speaker 2:So, like?
Speaker 1:would a job change because of the software, or were there always being need for an actual progression, like junior animator, senior, all the way up to the client?
Speaker 2:In your opinion, I hope there will be. I don't know if there will be, though. To tell you the honest truth, if the software and FDA gets good enough and smart enough and is intrinsically attractive to an audience, an audience doesn't care whether 100 human beings made this motion picture or it was a janitor and 100 computers. They don't give a hoot Right.
Speaker 1:They want the entertainment Exactly the end of the day, the viewers don't really care where it comes from, and perfection and perfection and good enough. Look very similar to the average AI. Yes, and that's the devil in the detail. I think a lot of people have talked to an animation, seem to forget, which is like yeah, this isn't art.
Speaker 1:This is commercial art, yes, or it's there to make money and make money as quick as possible with as low a cost And if I can, unemployed 100 people and just get a wall of servers, yeah, Yeah, but like in my heart of hearts, i hope there will always be like these horrible things to say, Yeah we all want this, but I'm like in my heart of hearts, i know there will always be those reluctant studios, like a studio Ghibli, who are like no, no, we're going to stick to the old ways, we're not. We're not letting go because that's the last few minutes, but I'm like that only lasts for so long, though.
Speaker 1:That's a dying machine, like as a dying sentiment. It is, and they do beautiful work. Don't get me wrong. It's just no, of course. Yeah, it's just like it can only last so long with the right person at the helm, yeah.
Speaker 2:The classic Warner Brothers. An old Bugs Bunny, you know. I would give an appendage to be able to work on a classic show like that with hand drawn animation. But that's not coming back. That makes sense. Yeah, as much as I wish and hope.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, like the Space Jam movie that came out a couple of years ago, that was all rigged, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:They were Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or was it hybrid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was hybrid. They were very loose rigs and they were encouraged to hand draw on top of the rigs because the rigs were very simple So they didn't get, you know, like full parts and that So it's like here's the basic rig, it works, use it, push it and draw with it as you go. So you got some of you know that, feel Right.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it doesn't always work when you don't get to like, explore with like, with a drawing, like, how far can I really push this versus all? these are the limitations on my rig And like. Okay, any like. There's a difference between you can tell from a hand drawn and like a digital puppet. We're like Oh, this is, this is the, this is the end. This is as far as I can get.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, you can, you can and I can, but your average audience member.
Speaker 1:Exactly The other day. they don't kick. No, like, like my kids will look at it and they can't tell the difference. There's like, whatever, i'm getting my pop troll. Yay, i don't know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. So at the end of the day, that's what I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of wary about. When I said, when I watch, why I want to start, this was just I think people need to be looking at it a little more critically, at the thing over the horizon, versus just like, oh, what's a wait and see and see what happens. I don't think that's the right approach. I don't want to be chicken little, but you know, no.
Speaker 2:I think it's time for chicken little And I think talk about this is is everywhere now with you know the chat G, what are you T and and things like that. the music, software and whatnot. everyone's sort of going is as good as this bad. So the questions are being asked, but in my thought process it's too late because the software is here now.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the question should have been asked 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we long like I'm reading an article. It was the one of the writers for Black Mirror was like, oh, i wrote an episode on chat GPT And it was like it was total dog shit. I'm like it is now Like there's a there's like there's a process between late where it describes different AIs. There's like one that just it's a responsive one to react to what you do, like. Uh, like this will use for Netflix algorithms where you pick a show and then it gets to send things similar with. It fits in within tags.
Speaker 1:Right Another one that's responsive. So the more you do something, the more it will do that. So like a self driving car they'll be like the more tests it does, the more that's the one that's in, like that's in stable diffusion, like all those art softwares. You type it in and it gets more and more refined. The third one, which is the one that is the scarier one, in my opinion, is where it's able to mathematically perceive intuition and emotions that humans would register which is your nightmare pops.
Speaker 2:So I presented that argument to a couple of animators. That's like, because they're like.
Speaker 1:Oh, it doesn't, it can't feel, it doesn't have that intuition. I'm like right now, But like, say, if it mathematically was able to do it, like this is all theoretical. But say, say it was able to, you were able to teach it the rule, the 12 principles, the Holy 12 principles, right, yeah. And you were like I want you to favor and understood what like favoring meant. Or you're like, uh, doing a style of looney tunes, tech savior or something like that, and it was just like, yeah, okay, we can do that, cause I'm sure a computer could go through a database faster than a human. Yeah. Or you have to be a specialist. And they're like, oh, i don't know. I'm like, hmm, that's where I sometimes feel like chicken little. I'm like am I the only one that sees the problem?
Speaker 2:No well, it's kind of scary. I hope you're not the only one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where I'm like. I feel like I'm in an echo chamber a little bit Okay.
Speaker 2:It's doomed to happen. Yeah, we've done it, like you say, i started off with paper and paper and pencil through to computer paint, through to computer software, through to, i mean, to 3D, the invention of 3D, and it just keeps happening and happening, and happening in its right Right.
Speaker 1:Keep marching on, right, that's the effective, the effect of innovation. Right, it's just makes things easier for us, But it also we lose some time. We lose things with innovation, right, and the classic argument, like I always heard, is like, well, we have computers. Back then we didn't have to get typewriters, and it's like sure, and a lot of people lost their jobs. But they also modified them or they outright just changed careers. True, and that's, and it's like that will probably happen again.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I mean, i've played with the, the chat GP thing, where I've asked it to explain to me things that I knew and I knew empirically this is correct and that is correct And it's spat out three paragraphs, absolutely perfect And it was absolutely right And it was written fairly well.
Speaker 1:It was sort of like oh dear, oh yeah, like I've asked chat GP to just for jokes Like what, what are the concerns with AI and animation? and gave me like a five paragraph summary of like who I should talk to And I was just like this is insane. This thing is telling me like all the problems and it sounds legit, but then you go through it and you're like sometimes you're like oh, it's repeating itself, which is like okay, i've heard that's the complaint, but I'm like, yeah, but people do that too.
Speaker 1:Like we just go by what we know, right, it just has a bigger quote unquote brain which is just the internet, right, and it comes through super light speed. So then my other question is the one thing I've always heard is like from talking to other people is oh, we don't have to worry, this isn't mainly going to be an AI, is mainly to be for a high budget or film purposes. It's not going to trickle down to like a 2D television base. Do you agree with that premise? Because right now, yeah, right, okay, everyone, everyone have talked to like oh well, they can't do this now. And I'm like that's just now, and like things can change. Like that, like okay, six months ago, where AI was like, oh, it could do this, and then chat, gpt came out and it can talk to us now, what the fuck?
Speaker 2:Well, okay, i'm hesitant to quote dollar figures, but okay, say, in the mid 90s Yeah, mid 90s, a half hour show was budgeted about three quarter from million dollars. You hit the two thousands when we had software and that we got rid of all of these people A half hour was budgeted half a million, you know, like a quarter million less. If, if AI Can replace another 50% of the crew, budgets will go down to, you know, two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for half an hour. What producer, what, what broadcaster or streamer is going to say no to a show that's now how many percentage cheaper and Delivered so much more quicker? right, like it? the answer Netflix is gonna go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll take 20 shows and to be honest, though I don't blame them because it's like as a business point of view, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, and I think a lot of people I've talked to they have to start looking at that, where it's like you have to look at the business side of things versus any animation side. Those are two very different things and the sooner you can merge those worlds together, the better you get a whole, you can see the whole picture versus just your one little slice. Yeah, i've been trying to tell people that I'm like no, you got to look at the whole thing because it's if you don't understand that You're gonna be lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i want to create a happy little elf story and I'm selling it to Netflix. Yeah, i have a choice I have a lovely crew here who uses harmony, and that's gonna cost you million dollars. Or I have a room full of computers, and it's gonna cost you two hundred and fifty thousand. So, mr Netflix, what do you want to pay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2:I care.
Speaker 1:No, there's like oh, bottom dollar, this one, that's great, we're gonna, we can approve more shows going this way, got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, according to price done? Yeah, i don't like, i don't blame, no, i don't either. And Does it hurt the art? Yeah, i think maybe it does. But This is, this is commercial art. You said it. Yeah, it's. We are selling a product. We're selling an animated series or a film or a story.
Speaker 1:Like I've had. I've had to remind some of my friends versus like they're like oh, this is art, I'm like no man, this is like animation.
Speaker 1:Like, like in the 80s, it's all just commercials for toys, like transformers, he man, all that. Like you're selling something through a show, even even like even shows I grew up on which was like reboot and stuff like that. Like it's just the same thing, it's just you're selling toys and merchandise like you see, this cool red car, you can buy it at toys or us for 2499 or whatever it is, yeah, yeah, and it's just like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell, i wish I I Could rail against you and say no, you're wrong, sure, but unfortunately, yeah, no, i think you're pretty much spot-on and you know there's trouble like well changing times, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I, i'm the same belief words. I don't think it's troubles, that's maybe I'm hoping it's just changes versus Yeah, like a total destination where it's just like, oh, everything gets replaced and there's only like Key couple outposts that produce animation and everyone else find different career, closed down the schools and all that It's like no, I don't want that either. I just want, i just want thing. I just want people to be aware We're like so from the stories.
Speaker 1:I heard where it was like when digital animation came late 2000s. People started integrating, like in schools, and be like okay, we have to teach kids how to use harmony because, yes, it's great to learn how to draw by hand and do the old ways and that's great, but if they want jobs, this is the way they're gonna have to do it. Yeah, go, go for it. Oh.
Speaker 2:This is such a devil's advocate thing and I I hate to open it up, go for it, and I hate to. I hate to say this out loud No one's gonna watch this, right that I know. So I work at. One of my part-time jobs is teaching animation And students and as the years have progressed, they now no longer teach paper and pencil drawn. Everything is digital straight into a computer And they are starting off with harmony in the first year of a three-year course.
Speaker 2:That's what I heard, yet when they come out and I see them as recruiter They do not have the drawing skills of someone from your era or before. Drawing skills are Vanishing.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I agree with that statement too where, like, people are forgetting to like draw through and like look at the, look at the pose and the forms and like, how does things twist and turn, the frigging, like body mechanic? There's like, oh, i should do this. You're like, no, like understand what's going on in front of you and Yeah, it's, it's the great irony. It's like I was talking, i was telling someone's, like I Was telling someone about my or about my years in school, or it was like it was weird, the first year because first year is Pretty much your whole brain being reprogrammed to think almost like a computer, where, like, you're analyzing everything. You're like you're analyzing physics You're not saying motion kinetics, everything And so you see the. by the end of first year, you should be able to see everything with a new lens, where nothing should look exactly this and it never does like to me everything I'm still looking at.
Speaker 1:I watch things like flying the air, like oh, there's the arc, this is how this move I got a watch a squirrel. I still see two just balls just going boot.
Speaker 2:But it's, That's great Yeah but that makes that, that makes you an animator right and.
Speaker 1:But I, like some of younger generation I've talked to, like off the podcast or it's just like They're just, they're very much like well, i'm, they're really good the software, and sometimes like way better than I am. I'm like, oh, i didn't know how to do this. It's great, good for you. But like some of this, like I've seen some of the art, or like the, the animation is either looks exactly the same I, or it's like there's no real Uniqueness or you or liveliness to it. It's just like, okay, that's not a fault to their own, it's just the way. I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's a trick. It's they're just moving things and they're moving parts. And at the, i see that in studios too, where they actually get into production and You know if you get a hand at ten scenes in a week or whatnot, and they just have to get through it.
Speaker 1:So they just move the parts, yeah, and that gets through, and it's like Yeah, i've been in productions versus like all right, we got to get this through, just make it look Okay, good, good enough. At the end of the day It's look good enough and Sometimes you're like this hurts and eventually, the more you get on, do it. Unfortunately, you get a little like Jaden. You're like, all right, whatever, i'm gonna focus on this one scene.
Speaker 1:So I have like a sparkle in my soul And the rest of us to Yes yeah, the other day I was just like all right, I'm gonna make this one scene look awesome and the rest of this like, All right, it'll be good enough. You know you'll, you'll get past me. There'll be one revision.
Speaker 2:So yeah now, now that thought could be just crammed into a computer, and the computer Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah make it be good enough right and so that my thing, yeah, like there's almost like a quality bar or just like mid-level low budget good enough, let's turn it all the way. Yeah, drink it till 11 like film quality.
Speaker 2:But but here's here's the problem and here's the issue. I see this happening with real life students. They're watching Animation or animated films from here and they're replicating them here and as we go forward, and there's less drawing skills and less animating skills. They are copying or aspiring To do the work of a middle of the road show, not Classic Disney or or or old techs, a free or Bob Clampett.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Not not understanding your history and how to get no they're watering down their own talent pool.
Speaker 2:So when the computers in the AI come and and look at the catalog, what is the computer going to replicate? Right, and that's what.
Speaker 1:I'm Hasn't it on and also very curious about where I'm like if you were, if you were to give it. You know this whole catalog from everything tech savory, like said, looney Tunes. Even if you get, even if you gave it like Buster Keaton, we're like all right, right, you know the greats. Yeah, and you're like I want Buster Keaton in a studio Ghibli style. You're like, oh. You're like, yeah, and it could do it probably. Mm-hmm, Like it's not that far-fetched.
Speaker 2:No but who knows that and this and, yeah, that Question as the input. You only get out what you put in, you know right the old computer garbage and garbage out right. So so not not even knowing who Looney Tunes are, because you grew up on. I don't know whatever is on.
Speaker 1:No, i grew up on a TV now Yeah, oh yeah, real reruns of Bugs Bunny and Tweety show on global TV in Toronto. That was my jam every day at five o'clock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:As a kid I was like this is the best show ever. How is no one ever thought of this man like? years later I was like, oh, this is reruns.
Speaker 2:But I mean, kids today are Watching anime and growing up with anime, so they want to replicate anime. You know, put a couple more drawings in there, please.
Speaker 1:But yeah, i Don't have as much as like a faux-paw. The enemy It's just a pen. It's just you at my day, at the end day for me.
Speaker 1:You just understand it like enemies all about pencil cotton, or it's like you know you're saving all your money for that one glorious shot, that like that one season animator Spent like a month doing it, just that one scene. And like you don't understand that, you're like, oh, this is all of it. I'm like, no, you watch it. They're holding frame like just like speed racer, and maybe there's like a you know shift in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have. We have 10,000 drawings to spend and we're gonna save 7000 for when the giant robot fights the bad guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want these crazy camera movements and all this stuff and you're like it looks great And that's all I remember Because that's your glory shot, exactly. It's cool anime. You're like, yeah, it's really cool, but it's like their day.
Speaker 2:It's like that's not all animation is so What you put into this AI and what you put into this animation robot Is going to. You've got to have someone who's got some Hopefully brains or soul, or knows what we're talking about is an art director, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's my running theory is like you need a strong guardian For animation to be at the helm, being like not just like, not a, not a, someone who's like is the business side. Like you need somebody like no, no, i understand what I'm doing, i understand what I'm using and I need to use it properly Because it's it's it's. It's a very slippery slope and that's my fears. It's like alright, We can replicate everything. Why do anything?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you'll end up with George the jungle or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you look like If you watch. If you watch, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:I love George the George.
Speaker 1:Oh, george, that's great I. I love this like if he's her, what's the new show? Eternal Unicorns?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes. Well, that's Glengi Tarkovsky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great. I'm like like he's one of the few guys just like putting his stick in the sand, like odd keeping the old way, and I love that his new show is just high fantasy thing, but it almost it's.
Speaker 1:it's almost an homage to the like Popeye the Sailor Man, where it's like everything's just got, this like nice chibi, like they're all like these charitally cute like a QB angel face with the big cheeks, but it's all this high action. You're like that's cool, yeah, and you're like this is great And. But everything he does you compare like Primal, where you're like Jesus Christ, this is beautiful, everything's a pain, yeah, yeah. And then I remember watching that being like couldn't AI do Primal? And I'm like I want to say no, but apart of these, like maybe don't say why not? Right, if it understands the principles of like you know the 12 principles? Yeah, it doesn't, and it's not that hard for computer understand it.
Speaker 2:And it's easy for a computer to remember it.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's what I've been telling people.
Speaker 2:A real life person is going to get lazy, cut corners and whatnot, but the computer is going to go. Need to hit this. Need to hit this. Need to hit this need to hit this.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I've been telling. People is like we learn as humans. we learn progressively, Right.
Speaker 1:Because it's a steady stream, but computers learn by steps, so it's like 50 failures, one success, and it's on to the next level and keeps going up, up, up, up, up up. It never loses. That Like like a human's always like a roller coaster. It's like oh, we dip and dive, we cheat, we look for the shortcuts and then we lose a little bit of skill, we get lazy, then we find it again And it's just like I think that's the trick. Now you're literally fighting against the machine. Eventually, yes, and I think it's sooner than people think. Skynet, yeah, skynet for animators, oh God, it is, yeah, all right. So last question is what would you like to know about AI with regards to animation, if you had to hear from someone?
Speaker 2:I don't think I have a.
Speaker 1:You have no stance or Okay, That Okay.
Speaker 2:I would like to ask if I could punch them in the face. Just to you know, can I get one shot in before you turn the button?
Speaker 1:on Yeah.
Speaker 2:Before you hit the button. Yeah, because there's going to be no stopping the machine, right? So you know, it's a matter of how do we work alongside with this new software and where do we fit in and how do we make it work properly and not churn out junk?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of. It reminds me a lot of the the Iron Man movies where once everyone realizes the arc reactor is a thing in his little chest, everyone wants it, everyone gets it And everyone wants to use it. And you're like, oh, there's no stopping, it's like knockoffs and duplicates and everyone wants it. And you're like, oh, okay, now it's out of the bottle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yeah, No, it it. This is. It's too late, It is out of the bottle and it's and it's going to run through every single studio, and every single studio in the world you know is watching whenever anybody else uses it and goes right Okay, They did that, They did that. Okay, We could probably do that too. It's. Yeah, The bomb has been created. Oh yeah, Like the example I've been using.
Speaker 1:If you're seeing the, it's those effects guys the collider. they did an anime of rock, paper scissors And a style using AI using AI, so it's about 15 minutes long.
Speaker 1:It's pretty impressive. That's what sparked my interest. So what they did was they filmed it all live action and then took the AI like stable diffusion, and trained it. So they were like, okay, we want it in the style of Berserk from the anime, so it took a couple of. I think, instead of it's like for every 50 pictures they took. It would take 50 attempts and they would choose the best ones, right.
Speaker 2:And then that's, that's like. I say, it's just trained.
Speaker 1:And eventually it was a as long as they kept. The irony is they had to use pencil economy without realizing it, so they had to keep all their costumes super clean. There couldn't be any details, because then the computer would get confused. So like anything with like badges and all that, they had to like tape it up. So they were like these regal prints outfits, so like a red one and a white one, i believe, and they had like take off badges or anything like frillies And he frills on the side.
Speaker 1:It was like we would just tape it down, so the computer would just analyze it as like one solid outfit with maybe like some buttons. So eventually they will film their live action scenes converted into a picture, and then, instead of the AI running at 24 frames and so the drawings would constantly change, they have to run it per frame and be like exactly like the previous one, and so when you play it all together, the style doesn't change or like nothing shifts, the only thing it couldn't do right now and they got the hands down perfectly, because they did 50 drawings of hands from that style And it was like, okay, we understand how to do hands.
Speaker 1:Now The only couldn't do is eyes. Eyes in pupil direction couldn't do, which I was like, oh, that's very interesting, so you would watch it, and then the eyes would like just jitter all the time or like go off and come back, and so I was like that's a very and people are like, wow, we don't have to worry, like that's a very minute problem, that is. That is.
Speaker 2:Well, actually I have. I can tell you a grandpa story from back in the days of Raccoons, the series Raccoons on CBC Yep, it was done here in Ottawa and Bert Raccoon was one of the lead Raccoons. We had some 3D people who were this would have been 85, 86, 87, and around there. They came in and they were 3D animators and they wanted to know if they could run tests using one of the Raccoon characters, bert Raccoon, who had the bent nose, And if they could get a model sheet and try to animate just like a head rotation or something simple, with Bert Raccoon. The studio and the owners who owned the IP said, yeah, sure, we gave them all the drawings. They came back in a couple of weeks and we said so how did it work? And they said, well, we modeled the character fine, but when we did the head turn it just looked uncomfortable. Well, they were computer people. so what they did is they just took the character and just did that And it was.
Speaker 2:there was no slow-ins, there was no life to the animation. But the other problem they had is he had these two big cheeks and when he started off the side, all the camera saw was his big cheek and it moved And they said it looks ugly. So he said, well, the animators cheat, because from head on it looks good but they dip the head. and when they dip the head they draw the cheek for going off in the distance. so it makes an appealing drawing and then when it comes back up they cheat the cheeks back out to where they're supposed to be. And the computer people said, well, how are we supposed to stick that into a piece of software? And I said, well, that's what traditional 2D animation and a piece of paper has got the trick in the art of. And they were frustrated.
Speaker 1:Well, i mean, now with Maya you can deform things and whatnot, but even then they still have like cheats and models in 3D, exactly Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, but back then, at the very beginning of 3D animation, that was a stumbling point. It's like, well, you'll work it out, and of course you did.
Speaker 1:Of course yeah, you have like a marion problems with. I think it was Woody's rig and Toy Story, where the hat would constantly clip through the head and they were like, yeah, we do. And they were like, well, the scenes we can do, we'll crop the film or we'll just do a head crop or we'll just take off his hat for whatever reason, and we'll find a run around.
Speaker 1:And that's normal for animation. Something doesn't work. Yeah, you can make it work Exactly. Yeah, i think, at the end of the day, amateurs are going to have to make it work with AI, unfortunately. Yes, i think that's the solution, and then you have to think about it faster than you think.
Speaker 2:It's going to save money for them, and it's going to save time, and time is also money, so they're getting win-win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the one thing amateurs never have enough of is time. Exactly, yeah, at the end of the day, that's the golden, that's the philosopher's stone of amateurs. It's the golden question like how do you get more time? And it's like, well, we have you know this might be it, or it might be a destruction, who knows? Yeah, but yeah, that's what we're doing, this for Figure it out, yeah Well good luck.
Speaker 2:Well, that's it.
Speaker 1:I want to thank our guests for contributing on our journey so far, and I want to thank you, the phantom listeners, for hanging us a ramble around the water pool. Come check in next time as we talk more about the subject of AI in the animation industry. Let's find out together. Don't forget to keep your eyes on the horizon.